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Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.24 13:39:08
Hi. I've been playing the puzzles here for a bit, but just thought I'd have a look in the forum. I have a few questions:

1. What is "Club 19"?
2. What is "Highlander" (people keep talking about it)!
3. How come the times are so short on the scoreboards? Are people really that fast or is someone cheating? (If so, what's the point?)

Also, I wanted to ask you all how you possibly manage to solve these puzzles. I am finding them INCREDIBLY difficult, even the easy Monday ones.

I am well used to the Nicoli Slitherlink puzzles, and I'm usually really good at them and I always solve them, no problem. But, as I say, even the Monday Kwon-Tom Loops have me stumped!

I have a set of about 15 standard "moves" that I can usually apply to any grid. But with Kwon-Tom Loop, I don't always get to use many of these moves.

Can anyone give me any strategies that might help, or do you know of any good sites that have tips or tutorials? I'm by no means a novice to Slitherlink. I just feel Kwon-Tom Loop is a different league of difficulty altogether.
tobiwan
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 6228
Best Total: 13m 30s		Posted - 2008.01.24 14:01:33
Hi.

1. What is "Club 19"?
Club 19 is a group of all the people who have completed all 7 puzzles in a week in under 20 minutes.  There are also Clubs for 29 minutes, 39 minutes, 49 minutes and 59 minutes. Here are the lists for the clubs

2. What is "Highlander" (people keep talking about it)!
I think it could be summed up as a pattern that results from an assumption that there is only one unique solution to any puzzle.  Here is the original discussion.  I still haven't worked out why it's called 'Highlander' though.

3. How come the times are so short on the scoreboards? Are people really that fast or is someone cheating? (If so, what's the point?)
There's no cheating.  Just some very clever people, and some less clever people who practice a lot.

The way to get better is to keep doing puzzles.  There are a lot more patterns than 15.  This thread has some examples to get you going.  You'll find in general that people won't give you the pattern outright, they'll expect you to figure out why the pattern is what it is.  This helps as well because instead of just knowing more patterns, it helps you to work out patterns for yourself.

Hope you enjoy it here.
foilman
Kwon-Tom Admin
Puzzles: 3614
Best Total: 24m 6s		Posted - 2008.01.24 14:49:45
Quote:
Originally Posted by tobiwan
I still haven't worked out why it's called 'Highlander' though.
From the film Highlander, with its famous quote "there can be only one".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobiwan
There's no cheating.  Just some very clever people, and some less clever people who practice a lot.
Well there is the occasional bit of cheating, but it's very rare, and I almost always spot it and send the person involved a polite email asking them not to do it again! And then change their time to the same as the person they copied.
nerdking
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 2699
Best Total: 23m 15s		Posted - 2008.01.25 02:08:26
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
Also, I wanted to ask you all how you possibly manage to solve these puzzles. I am finding them INCREDIBLY difficult, even the easy Monday ones.
When I first got here I would spend half an hour or more on the easy Monday puzzles.
But I worked and worked and worked. I went back through the archives and did a whole ton of old Monday puzzles. And through these, I developed a few new patterns that let me solve the Mondays much easier, and then I worked up to Tuesday.

I still am not that good at solving the weekend puzzles, but through methodical use of "Fix Position" you can get through them.
rootbeer
Kwon-Tom Addict
Puzzles: 216
Best Total: 1h 20m 26s		Posted - 2008.01.25 03:29:45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
Also, I wanted to ask you all how you possibly manage to solve these puzzles. I am finding them INCREDIBLY difficult, even the easy Monday ones.

Pick some old puzzle from the archives and see how far you can get on it. When you get to the point that you can't see anything more to deduce, post it here in the forum. Someone will be able to point out some places where you should be able to make some deductions. Study those places to learn how to spot them on your own. Repeat as needed!
Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.25 16:58:41
Thanks to all for the advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobiwan
There's no cheating.  Just some very clever people, and some less clever people who practice a lot.
I am in awe of the minds of these people.

I bow down before you!

I can't believe anyone could physically enter all those lines so fast in just a few minutes, presumably without even stopping to think.

I haven't been so impressed since I saw a score of over 50 million on Puzzle Bobble (my favourite arcade game). Some people are just incredibly quick thinking!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootbeer
When you get to the point that you can't see anything more to deduce, post it here in the forum.
Ha, that happens every time I play one of these puzzles!

I should be back here very soon with some examples of where I get stuck.

Thanks!
Last edited by Dizzy - 2008.01.25 17:03:54
Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.25 21:46:35
Well I've been reading through the forums and starting to become a little more fluent at this already. I think I'm definitely improving now. The Monday ones aren't seeming as bad.

But this is as far as I can get with this one (rated hard):


Could anyone give me any pointers? I feel completely lost with it and finding a way forward doesn't seem intuitive at all, without thinking loads of moves ahead (which I'm not great at).

(NB: inserting it into this post has removed my shading, so there are a few crosses missing that wouldn't be needed with shading there.)
Last edited by Dizzy - 2008.01.25 21:49:18
astrokath
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 3258
Best Total: 13m 42s		Posted - 2008.01.25 21:59:43
The pair of 3's and 2's in the bottom left corner can have more lines and crosses around it for starters...
Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.25 22:25:03
Thanks Astrokath, I realised the right hand side of that 2 had to be a line, which got me this far…


Ha! I'm stuck again. Doesn't take much to stump me, it seems.
procrastinator
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 1083
Best Total: 12m 56s		Posted - 2008.01.26 00:20:29
Now consider the second two in the left hand column.
Jankonyex
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 5680
Best Total: 9m 35s		Posted - 2008.01.26 00:38:29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
T.
¡Ï¡@¡Ï¡@¡Ï
¡@¡@¢é¡@¡@
¡Ï¢ë¡Ï¢ê¡Ï
¡@¡@¢ì¡@¡@
¡Ï¡@¡Ï¡@¡Ï
a+b+c+d = 0 or 2 line(s)
if sum of any two of them is 1, sum of another two should also be 1
(c1r1 left; c2r3 bottom; c6r8 bottom; c7r3,6 bottom; c10r1 top)
then (c1r2,3 left) should be lines avoiding closing loop
then (3@c1r1) give you another 2 lines
(2@c5r8) is not a corner{\}2 but an odd{\}2
huge pattern:

then deduce a line at (c9r8 right)
then two choices:
1) Highlander
2) deduce crosses at 1@c9r2 and make 2 assumptions
finish

solution
Last edited by Jankonyex - 2008.01.26 00:57:52
Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.26 01:05:58
Procrastinator,
Ahhh… thanks.

Jankonyex,
I really appreciate the help but I didn't understand a word of it. Sorry, I'm not really used to the terminology around here. I know what something like "c4 r6 top" means, but the rest went over my head.

And what's all this stuff about:

¡Ï¡@¡Ï¡@¡Ï
¡@¡@¢é¡@¡@
¡Ï¢ë¡Ï¢ê¡Ï
¡@¡@¢ì¡@¡@
¡Ï¡@¡Ï¡@¡Ï

It just looks meaningless to me. Do I need a special language installed on my browser or something?
Jankonyex
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 5680
Best Total: 9m 35s		Posted - 2008.01.26 01:20:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
P?
Firefox: push in order [Alt]->[v]->[c]->[m]->[a] and select XXXX(Big5)
Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.26 01:57:39
Oh, thanks.

Do you guys really switch character set every time you want to look at one of those illustrations?

I think I get the basic message of what you're saying now; well, mostly. If there are only two sides of a square where a line must go, and only one place for the line to exit, then you can draw that exit.
PuzzleLover
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 1033
Best Total: 38m 17s		Posted - 2008.01.26 08:46:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jankonyex
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
P?
Firefox: push in order [Alt]->[v]->[c]->[m]->[a] and select XXXX(Big5)

Sorry to be dense, but what does it mean to "push" something in Firefox?
Last edited by PuzzleLover - 2008.01.26 08:46:56
procrastinator
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 1083
Best Total: 12m 56s		Posted - 2008.01.26 08:57:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzlelover
Quote:
Originally Posted by jankonyex
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
P?
Firefox: push in order [Alt]->[v]->[c]->[m]->[a] and select XXXX(Big5)

Sorry to be dense, but what does it mean to "push" something in Firefox?

Push the buttons on your keyboard.
Actually you need to push Alt and v at the same time to begin with.
PuzzleLover
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 1033
Best Total: 38m 17s		Posted - 2008.01.26 09:37:14
Got it, thanks!  I'd always wondered what those strange looking postings were
Dizzy
Kwon-Tom Noob
Puzzles: 9		Posted - 2008.01.26 23:06:35
I wonder if anyone could advise me with this one (I think it was Friday's puzzle).

(puzzle removed)

I'm completely stumped. Maybe I went wrong somewhere? (If so, excuse me!)
Last edited by foilman - 2008.01.27 09:51:53
Brian
Kwon-Tom Obsessive
Puzzles: 4907
Best Total: 9m 6s		Posted - 2008.01.27 01:49:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
(I think it was Friday's puzzle)
Generally, you shouldn't post puzzles from the last week, since people can still post times for them.
Naivoj
Kwon-Tom Addict
Puzzles: 314
Best Total: 33m 50s		Posted - 2008.01.27 02:23:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian
Generally, ...
The exception being when you have completed the puzzle you use the protected feature in the "Post New Topic" screen:

"If you wish to discuss specifics of one of the current weekly puzzles, select the date of it here:
[                                                                      ]
The puzzle date will be added to the subject and only people who have completed it will be able to read this topic. Note: you can only choose puzzles you have completed."
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